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Neo-Quenya Wiki:Requests for translation
This page is intended for cases when an author cannot find a translation of a specific term in his dictionaries, nor create a meaningful paraphrase. Here, he or she can ask for help. The rules: #The author posts his request under a separate Level 2 headline which should contain only the requested term. #Anyone can make translation proposal. Discussions are welcome. #As soon as the request can be considered fulfilled, the respective section is to copy to the Talk page and delete here. #In case the translation is a neologism, the author should add it to the respective List. Gene * Yes... a biological term for "gene"... anyone can come up with a term for it?Bellenion 02:36, May 31, 2010 (UTC) ::"Gene" is derived both from Greek genos (origin) and genesis (birth). We have nosta for birth, which is also similar to nossë (familiy, clan, kin; basically everything which is based upon bloodly -- and thus genetical -- relationship). For "originate", we have auta-'', so probably we could write something like ''autil or so. However, I think that a construct based on the stem nos-'' would be better. ''Nosë with a single s'' maybe? Iron gollum 10:45, May 31, 2010 (UTC) Energy I need a good proposal for energy in a physical sense... Would like to write more about physics. Iron gollum 16:41, May 31, 2010 (UTC) *Why not just use "power" for "energy"?Bellenion 01:42, June 1, 2010 (UTC) :Power is a different physical subject, it should not be confused with energy. Iron gollum 16:01, June 1, 2010 (UTC) :*It's just like "data", "information", and "knowledge" come with different definitions in the field of Information Technology or Management of Information System, but it's hard for us to find all the counterparts in Quenya.--Bellenion 16:24, June 1, 2010 (UTC) :Ther's quite a difference. "Data" and "information" are somewhat similar terms, while "power" and "energy" mean very distinct subjects, which are, at the same time, often used in the same context. But I found something: "energy" is Greek for "activity". For "active", we have ''vecca, so what about veccië? Iron gollum 18:07, June 1, 2010 (UTC) ::Hmm... I mean, for instance, when "data", "information", and "knowledge" could be cognized as similar meanings for common people or in common usage, they are totally different concepts in the study of MIS, say ista as "knowledge" to be referred to "data" and "information" also, it's very weird to state a definition sentence like this in Quenya: "ista (knowledge) is the application of "ista" (data) and "ista" (information), while "ista" (information) is the useful "ista" (data) processed already." Just like "energy" and "power" or "strength", which could sometimes be interchangeable in some common circumstances, but in physics, they are totally different. And so here could be one of the biggest problems that there are too many similar cases like this one which Tolkien didn't invent or even didn't think necessary to invent, and some of them can be substituted with the other similar terms while in daily talk, but it's a big headache when we have to explain the definitions of each term in any specific field of study. ::Turn back to your inquiry, my personal opinion is to leave veccië as a special term in the study of physics, and replace it with tuo "strength" in other common circumstances. How about your idea?--Bellenion 02:21, June 2, 2010 (UTC) :::Yes, keeping veccië as a purely scientific term was my original idea. In mundane speech, tuo is better, but for physics, let us leave this one. Iron gollum 08:52, June 2, 2010 (UTC) :Personally I don't really like the idea of translating even the scientific terms as that would bring a lot of confusion. But since this is Neo-Quenya Wiki then I guess translating them is necessary. Anyway, I agree with leaving special terms for science related articles, because it really is hard to translate all existing scientific terms into Quenya. My suggestion is to translate the terms like heat or energy, that is terms that we use too in daily speech only in a different way. But for the the very specialized terms like the names of chemical elements, we can just transcribe them, or for the cases of names that include consonant groups not allowed in Quenya, like elements ending with ium ''(ending with m is not allowed), we should just leave them untranscribed. Last Waterbender 05:42, June 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Well, this is the hard qustion, what is better: keeping Latin or Greek terms where they are used in, say, English, or translating them all the way. In natural languages, xenologisms are adopted when the community of native speakers suddently faces a radically new concept. For example, the word "computer" is used as an anglicism in most languages of European origin, so one could believce that, if Quendi existed in modern times, they would have had adopted the word, too, possibly adapting it to their language. But then, again, there are the French who use the translated term "ordinateur". And, again, there are the Russians who tried to call computers "electronical computational machines", which was then replaced by "computers" because the former was simply too long and bulky. ::So there is no perfect solution, which is also severed by the fact that Tolkien, as Bellenion mentioned, didn't bother about inventing scientific and technical terms for Quenya (and, truly, inventing a word for computer while the language is set in a fantasy world would be very crazy). My opinion is that we should try to translate scientific terms as far as possible. As for chemical elements, there are some which are translateable (and translated in many languages) like hydrogen, but for those where this is not the case, we should, logically, keep to the Latin names. Concerning ''-ium — why not turn this to ''-iumë''? Iron gollum 08:52, June 2, 2010 (UTC) :::So helium ''would become ''heliumë. Then what about beryllium? Should it be turned to perylliumë? Last Waterbender 17:02, June 2, 2010 (UTC) ::::Yes, I think so. Even if some would opt for translating "helium" (since it is referred to the Sun), heliumë sounds good to me. Beryllium would be verilliumë, I suppose. Iron gollum 17:37, June 2, 2010 (UTC) :::::I think it's best to keep helium heliumë and the Sun Anar. Verilliumë ''looks understandable I think, it is quite different from beryllium. But we'll keep the chemical symbols, right? Last Waterbender 05:25, June 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Of course, the symbols are scientific standards. After all, in English, it is "sodium" and "Na", too. Iron gollum 09:27, June 3, 2010 (UTC) Element names I'm trying to create a periodic tale for the article on chemistry, but lots of the element names can't be transcribed. The list can be found on Cemië's talk page. Last Waterbender 10:26, June 4, 2010 (UTC) On second thought, I'd better put the list here as well. There. Hydrogen, Lithium, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Fluorine, Sodium, Magnesium, Chlorine, Scanadium, Vanadium, Chromium, Bromine, Rubidium, Strontium, Yttrium, Molybdenum, Rhodium, Palladium, Cadmium, Iodine, Lanthanum, Praseodymium, Gadolinium, Terbium, Dysprosium, Erbium, Ytterbium, Hafnium, Tungsten, Osmium, Iridium, Platinum, Radon, Francium, Radium, Actinium, Protactinium, Plutonium, Einsteinium, Lawrencium, Dubnium, Meitnerium, Ununbium, Ununtrium, Ununquadium, Ununpentium, Ununhexium, Ununseptium, Ununoctium. Oxygen Does anyone here have an idea for ''oxygen? Last Waterbender 13:52, June 7, 2010 (UTC) :Let's take a look. Oxygen stems from Greek "oxys" (acid; literally sharp). It is ovbious that we have to come up with a word for "acid" before we go to "oxygen". For sharp (piercing), we have maica. Thus, "acid" might be maicorma ("sharp matter"), and "oxygen" - maicontil. Iron gollum 14:21, June 12, 2010 (UTC) Element I would first ask for a word for "element" itself. We have two synonyms for "base": sundo and talma. Is there any better word? Iron gollum 20:02, June 5, 2010 (UTC) :How about erma - matter? Last Waterbender 15:09, June 6, 2010 (UTC) ::I would leave erma exactly for "matter" or "substance". We need something that reflects the elementary nature of elements :) Iron gollum 15:44, June 6, 2010 (UTC) ::Then I think talma would be better. It seems reflect more of a sense of 'foundation' than sundo. Last Waterbender 16:07, June 6, 2010 (UTC) ::Actually, how about sundocarmë, base-structure? Or would you rather leave the word for atom? Last Waterbender 16:15, June 6, 2010 (UTC) :::I like talma more. Concerning "atom", haven't you proposed atomë? I would choose this one. Iron gollum 22:55, June 6, 2010 (UTC) ::::"atom" is easy to render in Quenya, and I propose *''úristimë'' or *''úcírimë'' (cf. Gk. atomos "uncut," from a-'' "not" + ''tomos "a cutting," from temnein "to cut")--Bellenion 02:21, June 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::I know, but do you think that a literal translation is necessary in this case? Most languages have imported the word as is. Iron gollum 08:56, June 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::So, is atomë OK? Last Waterbender 13:43, June 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::::For me, definitely. Iron gollum 14:21, June 12, 2010 (UTC) Untranslatable terms Lithium — lisiumë (with a thule) Fluorine — feluor Sodium — natariumë (if someone could translate it - go on) Magnesium — manganesiumë or manesiumë (I like the former more, even though it is quite similar to manganum) Chlorine — celor Scandium — secandiumë Vanadium — vanadiumë Chromium — coromë Bromine — voromë Rubidium — ruvidiumë Strontium — storontiumë or sotorontiumë Yttrium — ittiriumë Molybdenum — molindenuë (or molivedenumë, but I like the other more) Rhodium — rodiumë Palladium — pallatiumë Cadmium — catamiuë Iodine — yotë Lantanum — landan (or lanasan) Praseoidymium — paraseoitimë or paraseoitimiumë Gadolinium — catoliniumë Terbium — terdiumë (or teretiumë) Dysprosium — tisiporosiumë Erbium — erwiumë Ytterbium — itterwiumë Hafnium — haveniumë Tungsten — volveraniumë Osmium — osomiumë Iridium — iritiumë Platinum — palatinë However, the name literally means "little silver", so maybe telpellë? Radon — raton Francium — faranciumë Radium — ratiumë Actinium — ahtiniumë Protactinium — either noahtiniumë or porotahtiniumë Plutonium — palutoniumë Einsteinium — einsteinumë (derived from a familiy name, hence should be left untranscribed) Lawrencium — lawrensiumë Dubnium — tuviniumë Meitnerium — meitneriumë Ununbium — coperniciumë Ununtrium, Ununquadium, Ununpentium, Ununhexium, Ununseptium, Ununoctium — two options - either transate or not translate the numbers. I am for the latter. Iron gollum 14:21, June 12, 2010 (UTC) :I thought a lone d'' is not allowed in Quenya. Last Waterbender 13:21, June 13, 2010 (UTC) :Right, I forgot it sometimes. This would give '''vanatiumë', ruvitiumë and rotiumë. Iron gollum 11:08, June 14, 2010 (UTC) ::What's manganum? And why is iodine yotë? Last Waterbender 13:26, June 14, 2010 (UTC) :::"Manganum" is manganese, sorry. Do you think that iodine should be iotë? I mean, the "i" in this word sounds rather like "y". We don't need transcribe the elements derived from names, right? That would include Einsteinium, Nobelium, Seaborgium, Lawrencium etc. Then how about those derived from place names? If that is the case, actually a lot of the element names don't need to be transcribed. Last Waterbender 13:58, June 14, 2010 (UTC) :Hmm, a difficult question. Actually, toponims are very often being transcribed, and the more general the toponim is, the more often and severe the transcription in natural languages is. Take Polonium, for example. Marie Curie called it honouring her motherland, Poland. But the own Polish name of Poland is "Polska"; Polonium is derived from the Latin transcription "Polonia" - which is, moreover, not an "original", Roman-Empire-style Latin word, since Poland did not exist at those times. So I think that transcribing place-names is ok. Iron gollum 22:58, June 16, 2010 (UTC) :OK. Last Waterbender 17:14, June 17, 2010 (UTC) Positive / Negative charge I'm trying to finish the page on atoms, but obviously without these two terms I can't do much at all. Can someone lend a hand translating them? Last Waterbender 16:45, June 14, 2010 (UTC) :The "charge" is simple, which we may well say cólo 'burden'. Regarding the "positive" and the "negative" in electronical sense, I tend to say porotono cólo "proton's charge" and celumëo cólo "electron's charge" respectively. We may also think from the latest definition of the two terms, and so would get cólo hyellenen (vitreous electrification, or "charge by glass") and cólo warindonen (resinous electrification, or "charge by rubber").--Bellenion 18:07, June 17, 2010 (UTC) I think it's better to say 'proton's charge' and 'electron's charge' for positive and negative charge respectively. And are you proposing celumë ''for ''electron? Why? Last Waterbender 09:31, June 20, 2010 (UTC) :I have cited the referential source in the "List of neologism". Pls check Elfling 2260 for the proposal by BP Jonsson.--Bellenion 10:39, June 20, 2010 (UTC) :Oh, I see. I changed it in the atomë article. Last Waterbender 11:31, June 21, 2010 (UTC) Destroy I'm trying to say "the Ring has to be destroyed" ''but I can't find a word for ''destroy. 14:36, June 21, 2010 (UTC)